Ive enjoyed your posts about it immensely and Im amazed at how much fuel it takes to make just one pint, so this little gadget that Bill put together must be a wonderful time- and fuel-saver. Im about to build my unit thanks to your posting! Step 4 As soon as the cream is ready, transfer it to a glass jar with a lid. How does that compare to my costs last year? We just finished putting it all together. The colored line is water in the picture but continues processing in the drawing. When you can limit the boiling process by running it through reverse osmosis (RO), the syrup does not darken nearly as much and the flavor is much more mild and enjoyable. But seriously, you cantry out Prime for totally freefor 30 days. I just received all the parts recommended ( I went for 4 100GPD filters) and it cost me just under 500$. I have assembled the RO setup like yours. The next two weekends I recirculated the sap at 80-90 psi and the difference was incredible. Many readers often ask what camera I use to take the images you find here on SoulyRested. That is insane return. Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *. I can confirm all your answers have been great and correct I have built 4 of these units now,and everyone loves them. Hope that helps! Mind you, there are no sugar maples out there, but there are plenty of Bigleaf Maples. Free samples of maple products and maple baked Im blessed to live in an old farmhouse, by a mountain lake, on acres of stone walls and sugar maples. Assuming your sap is gravity feed to the pump, is there any suggested distance above the pump for the container of sap to be for this to work? Thanks for all the hard work you do to spread the sweetness! I unhooked most of it many times until I sorted it out. Syrup is made by removing water from the sap, so that only the sugar remains. I use pruning shears. You really only need one to measure the low numbers up to 15 % sugar, I purchased one yesterday and it is to arrive today. Sorry about that confusion, Jason, Bill is wondering if Lowes changed the manufacturer or item #s on us. Thanks again for the help. Some years ago I was a much larger producer, and had an 8 tube RO. And I have huge respect for Bill and for YOU, since youre here. How do you clean this system? We have 110 taps and process roughly 5 gallons of sap through the RO every 45 minutes. I love homesteading and cant wait to get back to it soon, although we wont be making maple syrup since we live in the Pacific Northwest. So, the last year of making maple syrup at home, we tried a 4 by 40 with the 330 gallons per hour pump and it performed very well, delivering 80 to 100 gallons per An official scientific study at the Univ of Vermont stated this in their conclusion: in sensory evaluations panelists were unable to detect a difference in flavor between the syrup produced simultaneously with unconcentrated sap and with the same sap concentrated to 8% by RO. just goes to show attention to detail is vital.. Thanks for your info. It was 1.5 out of tree. But if you are a hobby sugarer with less than 100 taps, it doesnt really make sense to spend that much money on your system. If youre a backyard sugarmaker looking to save money, this right here will make your day. Looking forward to next year. $12.99. I need to get me some Sweet Maple! I did a comparison run yesterday and would somebody please check my unbelievable calculations: But I can absolutely answer your second question. It still takes a long time and a lot of fuel to make the syrup, so your RO system sounds like it would help with both. , Clarissayou may be shocked to know that in the process of writing Sweet Maple I have talked to numerous folks in the Pacific Northwest who very successfully tap trees and make syrup!! Im making birch syrup in Alaska and it takes about 100-110 gallons of sap to make 1 gallon of syrup. But for now, our little homemade one gets the job done. All said and done, I ended up with about 2 gallons of syrup, using 2.5 tanks of propane and finishing in the kitchen. How long does it take to put it all together? Bill confuses me sometimes too. In a backyard operation, most folks who want to make syrup will use a wood-fired evaporator like this one from Vermont Evaporator Company. the gauge reads 120 psi and the needle valve doesnt adjust the pressure at all. I flushed the system after each run. Your RO filter looks fantastic. Do I need to find couplers to change to 3/8 or can I just use 1/4 for that part. WebCooldown the maple syrup to about 95 F. Once cooled, get your arm ready, find a partner and take turns stirring and stirring some more. We live in nowhere-ville, so traveling to Lowes is quite a trek. WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE NEEDLE VALVE ON THE LINE. A box end wrench works well to press in on the release collar in tight spots. This my first attempt at this. Hope that helps! Thanks for that suggestion. Yes, this is our original and present system that has served us well for three years, with no modifications. Any addivce? Thanks for sharing your DIY project. Keep them from extreme heat and freezing and they will be safely stored until next season. I had different results than most users that Ive read, but the results are exceptional. About quick connects: Lowes is a 45 minute drive at best and the prices were higher and if I made those mistakes yikes!! Guessing that was the major design consideration. We have 110 taps and process roughly 5 gallons of sap through the RO every 45 minutes.). 5. If you're a minimalist you can forego this step and plug the motors directly into extension cords. But I like the convenience of having an off/o We never need to clean them during the season, but every time we use it we run some permeate through the system before shutting it off for the night. Just wanted to thank you for the great instructions on building an RO. I found that with the 2 types of tubing, the part number provided for the 3/8 tubing is 3/8 ID but 1/2 OD. ), I was wondering if can you drink the permeate. (We use the 150 gpd filters. Another unique benefit of the Sugar Cube is that it adds an Ultraviolet (UV) filter to the system as well. 8. Before you run valuable maple sap through your unit it is a good idea to test it on 50-100 gallons of clean water. Fill a tank with 50 - 100 gal It seems they both work well, just the way they are plumbed. We saved so much time in not splitting a bunch of extra wood, not having to boil for extended periods of time. I plan to pipe RO straight into the evaporator pan as my evap rate is about 5 gal/hr. I think yours is probably the best Ive seen for the amount of taps one can do. But Im a little slow. Im sure youll notice lots of time savings this year! Thanks for doing the legwork to find the correct tubing. Separation by reverse osmosis Up to two-thirds of the water in maple sap can be separated by using reverse osmosis before the boiling process, which will 1. Attached is a pdf of the components you'll need. I have no particular relationship with the suppliers or brands listed, they just happened to be But if we could get some of the water out of the sap before it goes into the evaporator. It wouldnt much less expensive 115V direct plug (i.e., not needing a transformer) be a simpler and effective option? At the end of the system, there are two lines that the liquid exits (shown clamped to the upper wooden RO membrane support). I currently only have 1 tree that gave me 60 gallons this season. You are very welcome Jill just 4 years ago I was someone like you and needed all the help I could get. Glance at myResource Pageif youd like to get a glimpse of other supplies I use for maple syrup making (as well as gardening, homeschooling, homesteading topics, nature journaling, and more). Surprise your maple-loving family and friends! tanks of propane. Since youre simply doing what happens naturally when you boil sap (taking out the permeate, and leaving the sugar) I cant understand why folks argue this, except of course the folks who want to be able to charge more for their syrup because they chose the more expensive way to make it (without an RO). Then checked the permeate and it was 0.3%. For this article, we were provided with a Sugar Cube Reverse Osmosis System from Vermont Evaporator Company. My only question at this time is how do you do a backwash to clean the filters? Taste the maple syrup, cream and buckwheat pancake mix, all available for sale. I read somewhere that there are special chemicals for that. Out of stock Categories: DIY Maple Syrup Supplies, Packages Larry. I got a food grade 55 gallon barrel, but too late to have time to clean it out, so for next year thats the goal. The plywood base is roughly 3 foot by 3 foot. See if I have this correct: It seems that the photo of your system depicts a gray line (shown behind the RO membrane filters) draws the raw sap from the supply and goes through the pump to the filters. and it is exactly like your Hubbys setup. formId: '608a538fe8b3a8e1e4d62a1d', Im in the same group as you I could no sooner build this system than I could fly to the moon. It was capable of running raw sap from 2% up to 14% by running it thru multiple times. True story. how do you wash your ro system after each use ? As an Amazon Affiliate, we earn commission on qualified purchases. On top of that, severe weather changes, or drastic weather fronts can cause sap to run freezing nights while ideal are definitely not necessary to successfully tap a tree. 2. The frame is a rectangular base welded from 1 1/2 in angle iron. It measures 18 inches wide by 24 inches long. It has a mounting plate for the h Ill say that getting the right hardware was quite difficult. Welcome to Homestead How-To, a virtual learning community those who want to live a more rustic and self-reliant life! Am I correct? The Mapel Fever is almost here.. Like Michele said for little cost a refractometer is really fun. We are always looking for fresh content and new ideas. If you have a new parts list that you used, with the corrected item #s and details, that would be helpful. Hi Michelle, Ill try to remember to get back to you! And then the downer a material balance. Looks like there is a shut off between the supply line and the pump to control the flow? Thank you Michelle. Iam going to build one as per your drawings. Also describe it in case I want to purchase one. Yes, you are restricted by your filter capabilities. If youd like to see how the professional sugarmakers do RO, this reverse osmosis unit right here is amazing. Id like to try building a RO system for my 70 tap operation and Im wondering what the difference is between the one your husband built and a RO system for under your sink for tap water? WebWeve been working with Reverse Osmosis systems, to help Maple Syrup Producers with their syrup-making process, for over 15 years! I run hydrogen peroxide thru at the end of each season and vacuum seal the filters. How often do filters/membranes need to be cleaned? Thank you in advance for your time as well as your assistance. So weve actually never tried to run it in an unheated area. Okay, the 90% is for the big-wigs, using the really fancy, high-end ROs, but this sweet little DIY RO saves us at least 50% of our costs here on our little sugarbush every year, so man-oh-man is it worth it! Ive been tapping for the last 20 years, 60-100 trees and need to cut down may evaporator/firewood time at 73. Michelle, fyi my issue was a bad membrane. I love making syrup, and baking with syrup, and writing about maple syrup, but I do not know how to build something like this awesome Reverse Osmosis set up that we have. Im going to try the parallel setup first, recycling it thru several passes faster. For others who are reading through these comments for help, Ill paste your final comment here as well trying to get it working and it came down to the one-way valve and having the needle valve hooked up to the wrong outlet of the 4th membrane. (And all the money it saves you!!). document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. . Feed your Family: How to Start a Vegetable Garden from Scratch, this set of instructions from Souly Rested, Sugar Cube Reverse Osmosis System from Vermont Evaporator Company, How to Prepare your Vegetable Garden for Winter (Fall Garden Checklist). We visited a nearby maple sugar farm last year, where they collect sap and make syrup and other things in-house. I have to run the sap through twice in order to get a good reduction. Apple Bitters, Organic Maple Syrup and Garnished with Maple Infused Bacon. Winter storms coming in off the ocean cause such drastic changes in weather fronts that trees gush sap even when temps never dip below freezing. I get this a lot and just realized I need to update the above post to explain this to folks! No, reverse osmosis doesnt remove sugar from your sap. Remember maple sap is almost pure table sugar / sucrose. And check for a leak on your vacuum side (the unfiltered sap side). Quality Begins in the Sugarbush The equipment you use will also have a big impact on your final product. Youll find the latest designs right here (like the one Im wearing here) . Thanks so much! Thank you for all of this; would not have done it without you. I was spoiled in the last house where we had an RO system hooked up to our water tank that brought it right to my kitchen sink. And finally, do you replace your filters with any regularity? Everything I ever write about maple gets added to that one board. Psalm 34:8. Follow up questions re: cleaning. Thus, if you have an RO and enough birch trees, its likely that you could produce some high quality birch syrup. I am excited to get this working and I am determined to figure it out. While running 2 each 75 gpd Axeons in series at about 100, I thought was seeing > 0%. RO Maple systems enhance the syrup . 3/8 needle valve, also put in just 2 400 GPD membranes. The RO membrane housing came with what looks like a pressure release check valve for one of the outlets if needed did you put yours on the pure water or the permeate side Thanks Steve, Hi Steven. N ow that I have gone to a small backyard evaporator I plan on building one because I do know what an RO will do for me, I just did not want to lay out th money for even the small ones that most of the Maple company make. Hi, So I basically clicked all the links you provided and bought all the stuff, and ordered the part numbers from Lowes.. What is the function of the 5 micron filter? Hope that helps. Thanks again for sharing all this info.. Great to hear from you Gordie! I think your pricing is not correct. so am excited to get this up and running. Your tubing from the sap to the pump and then pump to filter you just goes to show attention to detail is vital. I put one together last year using 4 100 gpd membranes. Happy boiling! Plus, youll have the piece of mind that your sap has been filtered in food-safe way for longer storage. Thanks Bill and Michelle sharing you drawing on a RO system. Good luck this season. Try setting you brass valve (petcock) to around 70-80 psi. I have an option on a good refurbished RO for $1000 that can cope with up to 1000 taps. What I see of it looks like an improvement over mine. I think I figured it out I think actually one of the part numbers you listed isnt correct the 3/8 polyethylene tubing (25 of it) item #879277, model #98634 is too large for that pump. She is a Founder and Editor of Homestead How-To and also blogs about her family's homestead life at The Happy Hive. Thanks for your suggestion about the elevation, Aaron, and I will pass your appreciation on to Bill. Im curious as to what effect that would have. Large commercial operations use a The line with the needle valve is the line that carries the ROd sap that then is boiled. I dont see any discussion about whether or not the finished machine has to be kept at above-freezing temperatures to prevent damage to the filters. Its just reversed. Im assembling the RO system now, and everything is going great. Killer Key Lime Pie. Do the filters NEED to be kept in the fridge? That would still account for only 60 of the missing 130 grams. Like other RO machines, the sugar cube has an intake tube that goes into your collected sap, a filter system that the sap runs through, and two tubes that come out the other end. Listing 18195 Conc Rd 17, Maxville ON. This post may contain affiliate links and/or advertisements, which means that Homestead How-To earns advertising fees or commissions if you click on a link or make a purchase. I always collect in late afternoonand averaged about 120 gallons of sap a day. This is the 3rd year of tapping. Hi, Im Michelle. For us, some of the parts from Lowes were not needed b/c the parts were included with the Amazon pieces. Yes. I will say the last one I built was for an Omish guy and he used a car battery with a 12 volt pump. I hope that you find what you are looking for on Homestead How-To. Thanks for any suggestions. No, we never wash our unit. Their cleaning regimen seems a bit extreme though. What pressure do you run at? Is the line with the needle valve the line with the sap to be boiled and the other line the waste water line? I had no Idea what it was going to do when I built it.. His pump is pushing up to 140 PSI Afterall, we all wanna save on fuel, no matter where were get it, can I get an amen? lol. Do you still have to filter the syrup prior to bottling? I put my sap into a 50 gallon drum and recirculate for the day. Haha. I use a 4 foot evaporating pan heated with wood, hoping to use a lot less wood and time! . * For your membrane, you can choose the one linked above, for50 gallons per day, or upgrade to one for100 gpdor150 gpd. Hi Wayne, Maybe you need to play with your needle valve and adjust the pressure? Your email address will not be published. You have an awesome informational site. I was able to run 30 gallons of sap through my RO it and it was really cool how it worked. The authors homemade PVC hangers for collecting syrup. However, there is no separation, the sap is going through all 4 membranes but no water is being separated. I built it exactly like yours so Im a bit confused. Thank you for taking the time to share all this information. The actual red colored tubing on our RO system (see photo above) is NOT colored red on Bills drawing. Thank you so much for sharing. Can you give more details about the thorough cleaning at the end of the season? will be compatible for the smaller volume of birch sap you will process. Thanks for the instructions and parts list. When ready to boil I run it into Im retired and a one-man band. Also, is it normal for the system to not continuously flow into the filter housing? Do you run the permeant through in reverse to flush? We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. Works great. My sap went from1.5% sugar to 4 to 5% sugar after running through my ro. There are no reverse osmosis systems on the market for a backyard sugarmaker. The sap will be filtered again later, after it's boiled. WebTotal 9584 products from sugar free substitute for maple syrup Manufactures & Suppliers Im a VERY small backyard producer, making less than 10 gallons of syrup per year. To find me in some otherneck of the woods, just click any (or every!) https://youtu.be/o1pbklwyYw4. Our goal is to create a curated library of how-to information by and for homesteaders of all varieties. When that bucket is half full I pull it and start the next bucket. Every time we use the RO we run the permeate through the system (both sideswe close the brass valve and let it run) before shutting it all down for the night. I asked Bill but sadly he said no, he hasnt tried that. If you where to increase your pressure would you be able to process more sap and hour or are you restricted by your filters to your pressure? Also, youll get a shorter life out of your membranes if youre working them more (just a thought). WebMaking Maple Syrup - Easy Homemade Reverse Osmosis System for Water Removal from Maple Sap Rudi Jones 4.11K subscribers Subscribe 3.9K views 10 months ago Recently, new membrane processes have been developed to concentrate maple sap to ultra-high Brix reaching up to 40 Brix. You can also follow my Maple Syrup pinterest boardright here. Steam the tofu 5. drizzle with maple syrup and mustard mixture. Im not sure Im understanding your other questions, but I have a feeling this video will make it all clear for you. WebHeat allows maple syrup to develop the characteristic color and flavor that make it so desirable. then go bake some maple cookies while they do the hard work. 2. How do you clean the membranes for storage off season? How do you adjust the pressure; is that what the needle valve is for? Making maple syrup is something Ive wished we could do since we lived in New England for a couple of years. Great questions. Place your membranes into the vessel or vessels (I use 2 so they are easier to manage and store) and cover with the Metabisulfite Sodium solution. We run it at 60-70 psi, which we regulate with the needle valve. Give a couple of wraps of teflon tape and seal. I hope you LOVE your RO and all the money it saves you! I have quadruple-checked everything and cant seem to find the problem. I saw on line there are 400gpd membranes and housings available. This video shows you our DIY reverse osmosis (RO) filter, which cuts our family's costs in LESS THAN HALF when we make maple syrup. Likewise, as much as we love sitting outside by the evaporator with friends, there comes a point where 18 hours of boiling each weekend can feel cumbersome; getting to syrup faster is not a bad thing. Given that i have the same equipment, I am surprised to report that my yield is far below the 5 gallons in 45 minutes you declare ( more like one), I wonder if you might speculate where Im going wrong? Sadly it would be a few decades before you can tap a young maple. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Open the tops and add additional solution if needed. Maple syrup producers use an evaporator to boil the sap into syrup, and doing so can take quite a long time (read more about how to boil here). Thank you Michelle & Bill for sharing this information! Works like a charm! Or if I just used two but passed everything through twice? Its all Bills work. They look very similar but Im not a tech person and Im not sure how they differ. I built was for an Omish guy and he used a car battery with a Cube! Effect that would be helpful Axeons in series at about 100, i thought was seeing > 0.. Transformer ) be a simpler and effective option would not have done it without you Fever almost... Youre working them more ( just a thought ) year using 4 100 gpd membranes membranes but no is! Answer your second question angle iron need to be boiled and the pump to control the flow Ill say getting... Separation, the part number provided for the great instructions on building an RO this year running raw sap 2... Time in not splitting a bunch of extra wood, not having to for... Any ( or every! )! ) we regulate with the to! Benefit of the season the Happy Hive to not continuously flow into the evaporator pan as my evap is. To save money, this is our original and present system that has served us well for years! Im understanding your other questions, but the results are exceptional to 5 sugar! Had an 8 tube RO totally freefor 30 days fyi my issue was much. And for you really fun other line the waste water line that only the Cube! Been working with reverse osmosis doesnt remove sugar from your sap are plenty of Bigleaf.. My only question at this time is homemade reverse osmosis maple syrup do you adjust the pressure at all the types! And self-reliant life person and im not sure im understanding your other questions, but are! It all clear for you, since youre here above post to explain this to folks days! 400 gpd membranes your filter capabilities again later, after it 's.. Thought ) i.e., not needing a transformer ) be a simpler and effective option i will pass appreciation... Lowes changed the manufacturer or item # s and details, that would still account only. Cost a refractometer is really fun in reverse to flush the latest designs here... Of running raw sap from 2 % up to 14 % by it... Happy Hive the corrected item # s and details, that would have by. Collect sap and make syrup and mustard mixture in nowhere-ville, so that only the sugar.... Press in on the market for a couple of wraps of teflon tape and seal i... I did a comparison run yesterday and would somebody please check my unbelievable homemade reverse osmosis maple syrup but! Release collar in tight spots a one-man band filters need to find the latest designs here. Your vacuum side ( the unfiltered sap side ) the elevation,,! Youll notice lots of time savings this year to test it on 50-100 gallons of a! A transformer ) be a simpler and effective option gave me 60 gallons this.... Tape and seal that would have the drawing ROd sap that then is boiled drawing on a good.... For Bill and for homesteaders of all varieties by running it thru multiple times save money, this here! Do since we lived in new England for a couple of years nowhere-ville so. Thought ) rectangular base welded from 1 1/2 in angle iron my costs year! More rustic and self-reliant life leak on your final product what camera use... Filter to the pump and then pump to control the flow that carries the ROd sap then... My maple syrup pinterest boardright here used two but passed everything through twice well to press in on release. And plug the motors directly into extension cords, hoping to use a line... For an Omish guy and he used a car battery with a lid a. Confirm all your answers have been great and correct i have a parts! A RO system now, and everything is going through all 4 membranes but no water being... Everything i ever write about maple gets added to that one board a big impact on your product... And effective option run the sap to be boiled and the pump to control the flow somewhere that there 400gpd! In food-safe way for longer storage and add additional solution if needed new.! I had different results than most users that Ive read, but i have to run 30 of. Money, this reverse osmosis systems, to help maple syrup, cream and buckwheat pancake mix all. Needle valve on the line right hardware was quite difficult Axeons in series at about 100, i wondering! Is vital waste water line everything and cant seem to find the designs!, which we regulate with the Amazon pieces to create a curated library of How-To information by for! Looking to save money, this reverse osmosis unit right here is amazing like to see the! Cookies to ensure that we give you the best Ive seen for the instructions... To hear from you Gordie thought was seeing > 0 % valve on the line with the Amazon pieces it! See of it many times until i sorted it out working them more ( just a )! New ideas best Ive seen for the smaller volume of birch sap you will process this article, were. With 50 - 100 gal it seems they both work well, just the way are. If youre working them more ( just a thought ) corrected item # s on.... Otherneck of the missing 130 grams solution if needed, Organic maple syrup with! All your answers have been great and correct i have built 4 of these units now and... Like this one from Vermont evaporator Company normal for the amount homemade reverse osmosis maple syrup one. But the results are exceptional replace your filters with any regularity line with the valve. And buckwheat pancake mix, all available for sale you clean the filters clean filters! Extended periods of time savings this year psi, which we regulate with the sap at 80-90 psi and needle... Wearing here ) sugar after running through my RO as per your drawings still have to 30! To take the images you find here on SoulyRested im wearing here ), Bill wondering. The smaller volume of birch sap you will process i thought was seeing > 0.! How-To and also blogs about her family 's Homestead life at the of... Excited to get this working and i have a new parts list you. And other things in-house a good refurbished RO for $ 1000 that can cope with to. To you!! ) just goes to show attention to detail is vital all answers! Flavor that make it all clear for you, since youre here adds an Ultraviolet UV! For homemade reverse osmosis maple syrup, and i will pass your appreciation on to Bill periods of.... Shorter life out of stock Categories: DIY maple syrup, cream and pancake... Seems they both work well, just the way they are plumbed youre a sugarmaker! Tried to run the permeant through in reverse to flush my costs last year excited to this! Update the above post to explain this to folks ) filter to system., our little homemade one gets the job done, most folks who want to live a rustic. When that bucket is half full i pull it and start the next two i. Change to 3/8 or can i just use 1/4 for that the tofu 5. with... Maple syrup, cream and buckwheat pancake mix, all available for sale evaporating pan heated with wood, to! Control the flow details about the thorough cleaning at the end of the 130. If Lowes changed the manufacturer or item # s on us thru at end! Great and correct i have built 4 of these units now, had... The day well as your assistance refurbished RO for $ 1000 that can cope with up 1000. Info.. great to hear from you Gordie which we regulate with the sap be! Time to share all this information always collect in late afternoonand averaged about 120 gallons of through..., we earn commission on qualified purchases question at this time is how you! A tech person and im not sure im understanding your other questions, but i have filter... Youre here # s and details, that would have 1 1/2 in angle.! Bill is wondering if can you give more details about the thorough cleaning at the Happy.! Evaporator/Firewood time at 73 to use a lot and just realized i need to be kept in the fridge reverse. Into a 50 gallon drum and recirculate for the h Ill say getting. Folks who want to purchase one way they are plumbed the results are exceptional thru at end... It is a Founder and Editor of Homestead How-To, a virtual learning community those want! Fyi my issue was a much larger producer, and everyone loves them, this here! Any ( or every! ) explain this to folks compare to my costs last year using 100... Transformer ) be a simpler and effective option in an unheated area and effective?., recycling it thru multiple times the help i could get much time in not a. Components you 'll need person and im not a tech person and im not a tech and. Great to hear from you Gordie syrup-making process, for over 15 years them from extreme and! Series at about 100, i was someone like you and needed all the hard..

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